Stephen Malkmus: No, I haven't. I got a CD in the mail this morning from Matador, a FedEx, you know, the track listing and stuff. I haven't listened to it yet.
How do you expect it's aged?
Well, probably better than some things from that era [laughs]. I always have to compare it to other things really, it's obviouslynot like some total masterpiece or anything. But I'm sure, I don't want to name names, but it probably holds up better than some things that were made by people our age and our social milieu from that time.
One of the things I was kinda curious about was that when Spin got the advance cassette, the legendary advance cassette, they reviewed it like about eight months before it actually came out. Were you like "what the fuck?"
I was pretty flattered and surprised, and all that, that was strange. I mean, it wasn't really what we expected.
At the time, when this hype started to mushroom, did you guys think "Shit, this is great"?
About as great as being happy that mainly we wouldn't have to work anymore, y'know.
What was your job at the time?
I worked at the Whitney as a security guard, and it was sorta a post-college job. It was sorta like working at a bar where you didn't have to serve anybody, or something, or a restaurant, so the outfits were a little more embarrassing.
But then you moved back to Stockton, right?
No, I never really lived there, we made it in Stockton just over a Christmas vacation. We just recorded in Stockton, it didn't have anything to do with Stockton, except that I went to high school there, and ya know, Gary lived there, and Scott. But it's more of a New York-y album, a New York indie record collector's record. I'd been wanting to sound like the Fall or the Swell Maps, these kind of bands and, well, the Pixies and the Velvet Underground too, but it was trying to live up to these things that were hip then [laughs], in those urban areas. Like Stockton wouldn't have cared about that. Nobody liked the Fall in Stockton.
How did you meet [drummer] Gary Young? Was he kinda a legendary, a local guy that everyone knew, or...?
I never had met him, I saw him play once or twice. But they opened for my hardcore band. They had, y'know, those guitars with no necks, no tuning pegs, and they had long hair and they just made the punks mad. They were pretty tacky. It was like Zappa, humor metal. That was what he was into a bit. I don't think he ever really liked a punk rock record in his life. I didn't really know him when Scott had said there was a cheap studio in Stockton that we could go to. And I just thought 'the worst the better,' y'know? The stranger place. Because it was sorta a self-conscious attempt to make a DIY single, along the lines of the Swell Maps or Desperate Bicycles or bands like that that were really self-consciously amateur. Maybe Beat Happening too, although I wasn't a fan of theirs. Just throw down whatever you can do, and have it sound woefully bad.
One of the things about all those bands you mentioned, especially Beat Happening, is that they just did not seem to give a shit. But it seems like the sounds you wanted to get or got were really well-constructed and relatively precise.
We got pretty lucky, I mean there was basic dictum because Steve Albini had said "no reverb, reverb is bad," so we couldn't use that. And that was sort of a reaction to the heavy metal drums sounds from the 80's, and also hearing Replacements and Husker Dü albums get ruined by overproduction. So that was the one thing. Gary had been recording another band and before we got there they had done some equalizing of the drums already. It was a metal band, we just turned off the reverb. We used their drum equalization. I would have never known how to do that. And Gary might have, he might have done something cheesy.
Why did you use him as a drummer? There was just no one on hand?
No, it was done well. We did the first single, no one was on hand, and then he was really quick. Because he's a good player, in one take he sounds like a 22-year old drummer playing the song 40 times.
It always seemed like his whole thing was, "Oh, I didn't understand what the hell these guys were all about." But his playing suggested he knew what was going on...
He did. He's good at... you could kinda tell him in the headphones, to make a long drum fill, and he would do it. And he would also make up stuff. So he's really talented. But it also helps keep it simple, because we only had a week or two to record this before I would go back to New York. There were no real choruses except on like a couple of songs, and where there were, if there was a chorus, I just had him play straight through on like "Zurich Is Stained."
Did you record any of it in New York? It says on the notes that some of it was recorded...
That it was recorded in Brooklyn.
Yeah, on Christmas '91.
That was a lie. I just stuck that in there because it's not true [laughs]. We just thought Brooklyn was really cool back then. We were way ahead of the trend [laughs]. But it was a little different then. It was Dickens-style, crack, desperation, and Williamsburg, was just a gleam in some young trust fund artist's eyes. It was exciting. Anyway, it was all done in Stockton. But it's fun to get in some digs on new Brooklyn.
I remember an interview you did a few years ago where you mentioned that you didn't think that Pavement was a "cultural moment". But now you have this record, this kind of 'reluctant classic,' being canonized. Do you look back and see its influence and think that maybe Pavement was a cultural moment?
I dunno. It's hard to say. Obviously people glommed on to it in a positive way. It was smaller than Nirvana. People liked it, and I know a lot of people who liked that record here in Portland, young people, well they're my age now [laughs], but they were young when they bought it. They were inspired by it a little bit. In the DIY style, y'know? 'Make your own records and you too can get in Spin magazine' [laughs]. Just kidding. Some people took it to heart. I don't know about a "cultural moment".
It must be nice to get that sense though.
Yeah, it means a lot to Matador too. Well, I mean, it was one of their first records, that... I mean they had Teenage Fan Club and Superchunk. But it kinda sent them on a winning streak for a few years. So in that way, it's really important for the business, this record [laughs]. Now for those people and all of us it was a great start. And it was a big surprise that people were interested in this little thing. So that was exciting. I mean we thought it would be maybe as big as, I don't know, the first Dinosaur Jr. album or something. That would be like our dream.
Yeah, it was probably a lot bigger than that.
And it turned out to be... that was big for its time. Y'know, it sold pretty well.
They tacked on a live disc from a show in England in '92. What did you think of yourself as a live band back then? Were you more like Steely Dan like you should've been in the studio, crafting your art?
No, we were fine with that. I'm pretty comfortable with playing in concerts and I kinda like to travel. All of us liked travel. I was pretty excited to do it the first time. It was like a free trip. Y'know when you're like a teenage backpacker, you're like, "well I can go for free, and the beer is free, and maybe a much better chance of meeting a girl, or something, or hanging out with interesting people in a town of either sex." So, we were up for it. And I think if it's what I understand this live concert from Brixton Academy that's on there. I remember specifically that Gary was pretty angry that day. It might have been one of his last concerts, I don't remember, but I think we had told him to tone it down. Probably I had told him to quit showing off. And I was worried when we played the show, I was like "that was a shitty show, that was just really tame." But when you listen to it on the thing, it sounds like he's just playing his part and we just sound really alive, it's just really fast.
There's a version of "Here" from a Peel Session in there with the extra shit, and it's different and it's pretty fucking good. Was that a version you thought about for the record?
I don't remember what it's like. Probably like the Coldplay version. That's probably where they saw us. They say they made that song "Yellow" after they saw us play.
It's like the first Sex Pistols show in 24 Hour Party People.
Yeah.
People in the audience all went out and formed dream-pop bands.
Yeah, they made big hit albums and didn't admit it.
And didn't compensate you at all.
No, they didn't. But our crew chief scared their drummer. He said 'We know, we're going to sue you,' which we'd never do. But as far as the show, it's nice to just hear the songs played one-two-three-four. You're a little scared when you play those big clubs, you don't dilly-dally too much. You kind of just get to the point, you want to hurry up just one two three four. It makes you more punk, ironically, because it's in a bigger place.
When's your next record coming out?
I don't know, we're working on it now. We're getting a little fussy.
What is your favorite Pavement record?
I guess ["Take In a Hard Time"], that one's good [laughs]. I should say that one, because you know that's one coming out, I mean that was quite a surprising one. But then also "Crooked Rain" was also surprisingly good regarding the circumstances of how it was made. And then "Wowie Zowie," that's the lil' underdog.
Y'know, there's a whole school of Pavement theorists that will say that's the great Pavement record, my girlfriend being one of them. It's kinda aged on me more and more.
English people like that one...
That's because they're perverse.
[laughs]. Maybe it's just, I don't know how it's perceived there, but all the pseudo-rock stars I met in England, they liked that one. If that's not proof it's the best.
One more thing. How did you write the lyrics? Did you just kinda write a song and add the lyrics later? Did you write lyrics for the song?
I don't even really remember. When you're young like that everything is really easy and really comes out fast, and the first thing you come out with is good but then you run out of words and you don't want to repeat yourself later. Just like a young Dylan [laughs], it flowed out of me, don't even remember. An explosion.
What sort of reading, what sort of models were you using? Were you an English major? You went to UVA right?
Yeah, I was a history major. I'm trying to remember. Probably y'know, in the late 90's we liked Raymond Carver. I don't know, I probably liked Tobias Wolf. Eighties guys. Maybe even there was just a little mocking of how magical realism was really in then? Even though I never read any of those books.
It always seemed like you were a big sorta imagery guy, a Wallace Stevens fan.
I don't know. I didn't even know who Wallace Stevens was at the time. Mark E. Smith was my Wallace Stevens. And you know, Lou Reed. It was probably more in a rock context. But who knows where you're getting things from. I didn't really read poetry then. But I did like the Fall! They were awesome [laughs] Someone had to Californize them.
